Israel is facing condemnation for mounting a hostage rescue operation that led to the deaths of Palestinian civilians. How have our values become so warped that saving hostages is now controversial?
Thank you for the excellent breakdown of the relevant law. Noncombatant deaths are an emotionally charged subject and you've done well to explain the standards in a non-inflammatory way.
It's interesting how the same people carefully publicizing every single known, suspected, or inflated Palestinian death have managed to avoid acknowledging that every single one of those Palestinians would still be alive if Hamas had not attacked on October 7th.
Very clear explanation of what took place and of what is acceptable in a war scenario. I will continue to keep people properly informed - whether they like it or not. Thank you
We used to make movies about heroic rescue operations just like this one. What happened? Thank you for your efforts to bring people back to their senses.
So following your logic, all Israeli victims on Oct 7 are Israel's moral responsibility and Hamas cannot be blamed as it was Israel's illegal occupation and siege and kidnapping of thousands of Palestinians etc that motivated the Hamas attack.
No, that makes no sense at all. Hamas broke a ceasefire and attacked civilian targets. It committed war crimes on an industrial scale. Most of Hamas's actions on 7 October 2023 were actions that, under international law, are unequivocally criminal in any circumstances.
The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2006, and the so-called "siege" was imposed because Hamas refused to renounce the use of violence. The "siege" - actually just a ban on the import of military and dual-use goods - imposed on Gaza by Israel and Egypt could have been lifted at any time; all Hamas had to do was commit to not firing rockets at Israel. Hamas refused to do so.
Hamas broke a ceasefire? What? What ceasefire? Did they forget to tell Israel about the ceasefire considering all the Palestinians they killed in 2023 prior to Oct 7?
So you didn't even know that Hamas and Israel agreed an indefinite ceasefire on 12 May 2023? That's interesting. Perhaps you're not actually as much of an expert on the Gaza conflict as you think you are...
There is no "alternative analysis" and pinning arbitrary values on human lives is a red herring. It is ALWAYS a crime - and in this case, of course, a war crime - to take hostages, and it is NEVER a crime to rescue them. Whether or not Israel is occupying Gaza is irrelevant; taking hostages is a war crime regardless.
But not all lives ARE equally valuable, Koen. For example, the only people killed during the initial stage of the operation - the actual rescue - were the guards holding the hostages. Their lives were forfeit the moment the operation was ordered. Their deaths were a predictable and acceptable consequence of the decision to rescue the hostages.
As for however many innocent Palestinians died during the later strikes and firefights because Hamas opened fire on the rescue teams, well, those weren't Israel's fault - so who REALLY regards Palestinian lives as less valuable?
Well, we don't know how many of the Palestinians who died during the hostage rescue WERE innocent. In any case, none of them would have died were it not for a string of bad - and often criminal - decisions made by Hamas. To reiterate what I said in my original post:
- Hamas chose to abduct hostages, an unambiguous war crime under international law
- Hamas chose to hold those hostages in an urban area filled with noncombatants
- Hamas chose to incarcerate the hostages, under the control of armed guards, in residential buildings filled with noncombatants
- Hamas chose to attack the rescue teams as they moved through a densely populated urban area
At any point in this sequence of events Hamas could have made a different choice. Every death that happened that day is THEIR responsibility.
Would you support a similar action, with a similar civilians casualties per hostage saved ratio, but now carried out by Palestinian resistance (maybe with Hezbollah or Iranian help) attempting to free some of the thousands of Palestinians held captive by the Israeli military, often without trial, indefinitely, subject to maltreatment and even torture incl rape?
Would I support a raid by a terrorist group to free people who were, as we both know, detained for taking part in terrorism or rioting? No, of course I wouldn't. This comparison doesn't hold up at all.
You have no idea how many of the Palestinians in Israeli captivity are entirely innocent and how many dangerous terrorists. And denying that Israel takes entirely innocent Palestinians captive (hostage) and holds them without trial, without charges, is impossible. Nor is it possible to deny that it has tortured many of these. Even before Oct 7, and definitely after, Israel has held more innocent Palestinian civilians in captivity than Hamas Israeli civilians.
OK, let's call them "innocent civilian captives". Israel undeniably, demonstrably holds and has held many of those. And tortured many of them too. IIRC (but not 100% sure) even the man we saw in that video being anally gang raped by his Israeli guards was not a Hamas fighter.
Well, YOU say they're innocent. Define "innocent" - because in this context I've seen it applied to teenagers who "were only throwing stones" (with a sling). Bluntly, if I was holding a rifle and someone was using a sling to hurl stones at me, they wouldn't be getting detained. They'd be getting shot.
Lastly, *by far* the most effective method so far of releasing captives held by Hamas has been negotiations and captives exchanges. I don't know how clear Netanyahu has to make it before the non-Israeli pro-Israel side starts to understand that the Netanyahu government's goal is not to free the hostages but to use the plight of the hostages to continue this war and cause as much damage to Gaza and the people in it as possible. I think this is understood in Israel itself.
No, you're quite fundamentally wrong here. Negotiations and prisoner releases have been a completely ineffective response to Hamas hostage-taking. This is obvious from the fact that Hamas keep taking hostages. You, like Hamas, seem to see hostage-taking as a legitimate tactic that can be used to extract concessions. It isn't. It's a crime, a "grave breach" of the Geneva Conventions and an act that is never permissible under international law.
Is this indeed the Netanyahu government's goal? Personally I don't think so, but it certainly isn't impossible. Of course if it IS the Israeli government's goal there's a very simple way for Hamas to neutralise it - release the hostages.
How many captives were released through negotiations and an exchange of captives? And how many were freed by military intervention? And how many Israeli captives have been killed by Israel's military action in Gaza? Also remember that many Israelis held by Hamas are soldiers, and they were taken in the context of an active battle. Seems more proper to consider them akin to prisoners of war.
"How many captives were released through negotiations and an exchange of captives?"
That's completely irrelevant.
"And how many were freed by military intervention?"
That's also completely irrelevant.
"And how many Israeli captives have been killed by Israel's military action in Gaza?"
None. All the hostages who died in Gaza were killed by the actions of Hamas. If hostages are killed it is ALWAYS the responsibility of whoever took them hostage.
If Hamas continue to be rewarded for taking hostages they will continue to do it. They will only cease to take hostages when they come to understand that doing so will bring them nothing but retribution.
Thank you for the excellent breakdown of the relevant law. Noncombatant deaths are an emotionally charged subject and you've done well to explain the standards in a non-inflammatory way.
It's interesting how the same people carefully publicizing every single known, suspected, or inflated Palestinian death have managed to avoid acknowledging that every single one of those Palestinians would still be alive if Hamas had not attacked on October 7th.
Very clear explanation of what took place and of what is acceptable in a war scenario. I will continue to keep people properly informed - whether they like it or not. Thank you
We used to make movies about heroic rescue operations just like this one. What happened? Thank you for your efforts to bring people back to their senses.
So following your logic, all Israeli victims on Oct 7 are Israel's moral responsibility and Hamas cannot be blamed as it was Israel's illegal occupation and siege and kidnapping of thousands of Palestinians etc that motivated the Hamas attack.
No, that makes no sense at all. Hamas broke a ceasefire and attacked civilian targets. It committed war crimes on an industrial scale. Most of Hamas's actions on 7 October 2023 were actions that, under international law, are unequivocally criminal in any circumstances.
The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2006, and the so-called "siege" was imposed because Hamas refused to renounce the use of violence. The "siege" - actually just a ban on the import of military and dual-use goods - imposed on Gaza by Israel and Egypt could have been lifted at any time; all Hamas had to do was commit to not firing rockets at Israel. Hamas refused to do so.
Hamas broke a ceasefire? What? What ceasefire? Did they forget to tell Israel about the ceasefire considering all the Palestinians they killed in 2023 prior to Oct 7?
"Hamas broke a ceasefire? What? What ceasefire?"
So you didn't even know that Hamas and Israel agreed an indefinite ceasefire on 12 May 2023? That's interesting. Perhaps you're not actually as much of an expert on the Gaza conflict as you think you are...
Now try an alternative analysis, this time based on the assumption that Israeli and Palestinian lives are equally valuable.
Or a third analysis, based on the assumption that Israel is the occupying power and an occupying power has no legitimate self defense claim.
There is no "alternative analysis" and pinning arbitrary values on human lives is a red herring. It is ALWAYS a crime - and in this case, of course, a war crime - to take hostages, and it is NEVER a crime to rescue them. Whether or not Israel is occupying Gaza is irrelevant; taking hostages is a war crime regardless.
"arbitrary values on human lives"
That's your response to the concept of treating Israeli and Palestinian lives as equally valuable?
But not all lives ARE equally valuable, Koen. For example, the only people killed during the initial stage of the operation - the actual rescue - were the guards holding the hostages. Their lives were forfeit the moment the operation was ordered. Their deaths were a predictable and acceptable consequence of the decision to rescue the hostages.
As for however many innocent Palestinians died during the later strikes and firefights because Hamas opened fire on the rescue teams, well, those weren't Israel's fault - so who REALLY regards Palestinian lives as less valuable?
I thought it would be obvious that I meant "the lives of innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians are equally valuable"
Well, we don't know how many of the Palestinians who died during the hostage rescue WERE innocent. In any case, none of them would have died were it not for a string of bad - and often criminal - decisions made by Hamas. To reiterate what I said in my original post:
- Hamas chose to abduct hostages, an unambiguous war crime under international law
- Hamas chose to hold those hostages in an urban area filled with noncombatants
- Hamas chose to incarcerate the hostages, under the control of armed guards, in residential buildings filled with noncombatants
- Hamas chose to attack the rescue teams as they moved through a densely populated urban area
At any point in this sequence of events Hamas could have made a different choice. Every death that happened that day is THEIR responsibility.
No, there is just absolutely no need to do this! Easy and simple!
But on the other hand I would highly recommend you a first psychological anamnesis - for real, give it a shot!
Would you support a similar action, with a similar civilians casualties per hostage saved ratio, but now carried out by Palestinian resistance (maybe with Hezbollah or Iranian help) attempting to free some of the thousands of Palestinians held captive by the Israeli military, often without trial, indefinitely, subject to maltreatment and even torture incl rape?
Would I support a raid by a terrorist group to free people who were, as we both know, detained for taking part in terrorism or rioting? No, of course I wouldn't. This comparison doesn't hold up at all.
You have no idea how many of the Palestinians in Israeli captivity are entirely innocent and how many dangerous terrorists. And denying that Israel takes entirely innocent Palestinians captive (hostage) and holds them without trial, without charges, is impossible. Nor is it possible to deny that it has tortured many of these. Even before Oct 7, and definitely after, Israel has held more innocent Palestinian civilians in captivity than Hamas Israeli civilians.
"And denying that Israel takes entirely innocent Palestinians captive (hostage)"
Stop right there. You are implying that "captive" and "hostage" mean the same thing., They do not. Israel is not holding Palestinian hostages.
OK, let's call them "innocent civilian captives". Israel undeniably, demonstrably holds and has held many of those. And tortured many of them too. IIRC (but not 100% sure) even the man we saw in that video being anally gang raped by his Israeli guards was not a Hamas fighter.
Well, YOU say they're innocent. Define "innocent" - because in this context I've seen it applied to teenagers who "were only throwing stones" (with a sling). Bluntly, if I was holding a rifle and someone was using a sling to hurl stones at me, they wouldn't be getting detained. They'd be getting shot.
Lastly, *by far* the most effective method so far of releasing captives held by Hamas has been negotiations and captives exchanges. I don't know how clear Netanyahu has to make it before the non-Israeli pro-Israel side starts to understand that the Netanyahu government's goal is not to free the hostages but to use the plight of the hostages to continue this war and cause as much damage to Gaza and the people in it as possible. I think this is understood in Israel itself.
No, you're quite fundamentally wrong here. Negotiations and prisoner releases have been a completely ineffective response to Hamas hostage-taking. This is obvious from the fact that Hamas keep taking hostages. You, like Hamas, seem to see hostage-taking as a legitimate tactic that can be used to extract concessions. It isn't. It's a crime, a "grave breach" of the Geneva Conventions and an act that is never permissible under international law.
Is this indeed the Netanyahu government's goal? Personally I don't think so, but it certainly isn't impossible. Of course if it IS the Israeli government's goal there's a very simple way for Hamas to neutralise it - release the hostages.
How many captives were released through negotiations and an exchange of captives? And how many were freed by military intervention? And how many Israeli captives have been killed by Israel's military action in Gaza? Also remember that many Israelis held by Hamas are soldiers, and they were taken in the context of an active battle. Seems more proper to consider them akin to prisoners of war.
"How many captives were released through negotiations and an exchange of captives?"
That's completely irrelevant.
"And how many were freed by military intervention?"
That's also completely irrelevant.
"And how many Israeli captives have been killed by Israel's military action in Gaza?"
None. All the hostages who died in Gaza were killed by the actions of Hamas. If hostages are killed it is ALWAYS the responsibility of whoever took them hostage.
If Hamas continue to be rewarded for taking hostages they will continue to do it. They will only cease to take hostages when they come to understand that doing so will bring them nothing but retribution.